Product Management Today & Tomorrow: Navigating the Trends Around Us
Episode 009: Steve Johnson & Grant Hunter
Grant Hunter and Steve Johnson join JJ Rorie on this episode to talk about what is happening in product management today and what trends we see coming in the next few years.
Product management seems to simultaneously be constantly changing and also staying the same over time. Things come, things go. Many things remain from the core principles of long ago. But one thing that is certain is that folks working in product management must stay on top of trends in our product management world and what’s going on all around our customers.
JJ: Hello and welcome to Product Voices. I'm excited about our topic today. This is going to be a fun conversation with my guests. So product management seems to simultaneously be always changing around us and also kind of always staying the same. Over time. Things come, things go, things stay the same. Hopefully the things that really matter stay the same. One thing is very true, though, that we've always got to be staying on top of the trends, what's happening in our world, in the quote unquote product management world, but also, of course, what's going on with our customers and how we can better serve our customers and be better product people.
So today's conversation is with Grant Hunter and Steve Johnson. I'm so excited about this. Grant and Steve are the co founders of Product Growth Leaders, Product management training and coaching company that is focused on improving the outcomes of product management training by shifting from lectures to interactive workshops. That's always a good idea. Nobody likes lectures. Steve was the first instructor and former lead instructor at Pragmatic Marketing. He's trained tens of thousands of product managers over the past 25 years. He's an author, speaker, product coach. Very happy to have Steve here. Grant is also former Pragmatic marketing instructor and he's also a former adjunct professor of marketing in the Rutgers NBA program. He's a product coach strategy adviser helps companies and product organizations all over the world. Steve Grant, thank you for joining me today.
STEVE: Glad to be here.
GRANT: Excited to be here with you, JJ.
JJ: Obviously, you are the co founders of Product Growth Leaders. Been around for a couple of years. I think you can give me the background on that not too terribly long ago. Tell me a little bit more about of how that started, what trends were out there that were driving you to start this company in this approach?
STEVE: Well, actually, I've been consulting kind of on my own for quite a while. And so often in training, people would come up and say, gosh, this training was really good and you told some really good stories, but can you come back and help us? And I realized that training was like step one of a multi step process. And I was having this discussion with Grant at some point. And he said, well, I've had the same experience. And so we threw our two partnerships, our two consultancies together to create Product Growth Leaders some time ago. And we're really focused on efficacy, you know, trying to get out of what is it called, try to get away from stage on the stage to guide on the side. Oh, I love that. Sage are the stage to guide on the site.
JJ: That's awesome. And so, Grant, you're seeing some of the same things out there and wanted to kind of get in there and do things a little bit differently.
GRANT: Definitely. It was really an applied focus to it. And when you have the ability really to sort of roll the sleeves up and help people understand the concepts and apply them and see them make changes to their business, the value I got from those situations versus just the lecture type stuff was amazing. And Steve and I had come together with a group of people to create the Court's Open Framework, an open framework for product management. And it was in that that Steve became a great mentor of mine. Obviously, I had known Steve for a long time, and I learned Pragmatic marketing under his voice and the chance for us to come together and sort of to do it a better way, a new way, focus on the efficacy. As Steve said, flip the classroom and make it about improving the outcomes of teams and helping them overcome the chaos they see in their product organizations and their organizations as a whole. And so it started as a community where we were just having conversations with people on trends and topics. And eventually we started looking at how we could, as Steve said, combined our consultancy. Steve is more training and coaching centric mine more advisory and coaching. And we sort of brought them together to what is now product growth leaders
JJ: Love it. That's awesome. Much needed out there. So, Steve, I'll address this one to you. What do you see as the most pressing or important trend happening in product management today.
STEVE: Well, yeah, I was talking to a vice President of a well known company the other day, and he said, you know, we spent the last ten years perfecting development. We've done DevOps and we've done agile training, and we're all scrum and whatever. We've spent the last ten years figuring out how to build products. Right. And now we're realizing we're building the wrong products. And so they're turning their attention to product management. And this is what I'm seeing in many organizations, that we just got overwhelmed with becoming Agile the last decade. And now people are calling us, saying, how do I remove the chaos from product management? The roles are so unclear. And particularly, forgive me, but because of Agile, product management has really become more of a development role with the product owner. And they're leaving a big hole in the, the strategy, the market, sensing the things that you and I might consider to be real product management.
JJ: Yeah, that is such a really great way to say it. So we've spent so much time figuring out how to build products the right way and not necessarily to build the right products. That's just such a really poignant way to put that that I agree with you, Grant. Anything to add to that or maybe even another trend you see happening out there.
GRANT: I'm going to sort of double down on it a little. It is that strategic role of product. And whether it's because of LinkedIn or Twitter or Facebook, but they've sort of become the product thought leader. Sometimes they're thoughtful in leaders, sometimes they're just people with an opinion. But it seems that a ton of them have been in that sort of product management as a part of development in the agile mindset. And for me, along with Steve, it's about how do we get back to that strategic role? Warren Bennett said, management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things. And I think we need to think about leadership and product management in the organization and the role we can play. Going back to Hewlett Packard and even Procter and Gamble before that, it was always a strategic and business role. For me, that's sort of where it is. It's been falling away from that. And I think that the trend is falling away. And I think the opportunity is how do we get it back.
JJ: I really couldn't agree more with that. I'm still surprised. I don't know why I'm surprised anymore, but it still does surprise me a little bit when I go into organizations and they're so incredibly process focused or even in the first conversations talking about we need to improve and we need to optimize our product management function. And they're 90% of the time talking about process. And then we start talking about how do you figure out what to do in the first place? And they realize they've got an even bigger hole there. So, yeah, you're preaching to the choir here. I love this because if we can get the product management world to figure that out first, right, it's not that building products the right way and inefficient ways and that may look different in every organization. Of course, every organization has to be efficient and effective and derisk the process as much as possible and as much as applicable in their world. But if we're not doing the right things in the first place, what's the point? So I love that that's the focus there.
STEVE: And that reminds me, before you go to the next point, I was working with a team not too long ago, and I kind of forgot that they hadn't gone through any sort of training with me before. And I just said, but I'm sure we would all agree that product management is their primary role, is understanding markets and problems. And there was this shout from the people in the room and they said, well, no, the salespeople are the ones that know the markets. And I'm like, really tell me about your market. And one of the sales guy was there and he said, yeah, I had a customer call last week and I said, who was it? And he said, oh, it was our dealer in Ann Arbor. And you're like a dealer isn't a customer. And they were selling high end systems to churches, and not a single person in the room had ever talked to an audio engineer at a Church. And so in this scenario, it was salespeople talking to more sales people, but nobody was really understanding the market.
JJ: That's crazy. But it happens all the time, right. And so we still need to there's this education of organizations and what product management is and what it should be in best practice, not to use that overused term. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting. I'd like to get your take on this just again before we move to the next question. Let's say over the last ten years, maybe product management and software as a service. And agile, obviously agile has been around longer than ten years, but I would say the last ten to twelve years it's really been product management associated with software Silicon Valley. And there's this big shift of product management from kind of the durable goods, the consumer goods, to product management being all about software, product. And at first when I was in that and we were all in product management 10/12 years ago, I thought this is a good thing. It's a good thing for product management. We're going to get more flexible. We're going to focus on the user, the customer. We're going to center ourselves there. And I think there's certainly some arguments to be made that some of that has happened. But to your point, Steve, it's been such a process driven Ironically, you know, trying to be agile, a process driven in an operational kind of driven transformation that I think we've lost sight in some ways and maybe going to the wrong side of the pendulum there.
STEVE: Well, you know, the pendulum is the right word, too. I've been around this for a while, you know, 25 years of doing consulting and then actual work before that. And I've seen the pendulum swing back and forth. I mean, at one point it was like product management was always in marketing, and then ten years later it was swung all the way over to development. And then ten years after that, it swung back to marketing. And I was pretty delighted about, I don't know, five or ten years ago, we started seeing more and more chief product officers, not product management and marketing and not product management and development, but product management as its own thing. And I think that's a really good move. And yet in my conversations with CPOs, they tell me that one of their biggest problems is process, that every product manager is running their own business effectively. They've all gone to different seminars, they've all seen different webinars, they've all gone to different product camps, they've all read different books. And so when a product manager presents a roadmap, you use a spreadsheet, and I use PowerPoint and Grant uses one of the great road mapping tools. And the poor executive team is sitting there going, what am I looking at now? So finding consistency in the way we do things is very much like what we saw a few years ago with the adoption of DevOps. We're all going to check in code the same way. Likewise, we're all going to create the same kinds of documents for personas and problems and stories. So I think we need a little bit of process, just enough process that there's a consistency in what we do as a team.
GRANT: If I could jump in the first second, I think it's as much about the outcomes of those processes as the processes themselves. So is it a consistent looking roadmap? Is it a consistent looking problem story? How somebody gets from point A to that output or outcome is going to be different for each person, but it's about standardizing on those outputs and those outcomes.
JJ: I totally agree with that. I kind of like to think about it. I'm a big believer in simplifying everything we can just because I think we tend to overcomplicate almost everything in product management. If you think about it, there's like a handful of activities that that should happen in product management. Right. And of course, there's an ecosystem of people that play a role in that, but there's only five or six big bucket items that we do, and then it becomes a matter of the decision points around that because really product management is a decision making role. Right. It's what problem to solve. Why are we solving that, make a decision for the problems that we believe we can solve uniquely for whom we should be solving it, and then, of course, kind of how to execute on that. And so those activities and the decision points really should drive us and the rituals and artifacts that come from those as you said, Grant, that's a matter of okay, what's going to get us to the best decision right through those activities.
GRANT: And it's interesting, JJ, if you've read Decisive by the Heath brothers, what they talk about is that process is better than analysis and decision making by a factor of six. This was based on some research from McKinsey, and I love how you're for product management is about decision making. So the processes we should be thinking about for product management are not do this, do this, do this, do this. They're the process of how do we make decisions. And that's where we'll get the most value from process as a decision making process.
JJ: That's right. We tend to get away from that or forget that. And then even when we're well aware that a decision needs to be made, we try to derisk risk of that decision until there's literally no risk left. And that's just not how our world works.
Okay, let's move on and look out a little bit. Grant, I'll start with you this time. What are you seeing or what do you believe our product management world will look like? Some of the things that we'll be talking about on this podcast in three to five years. What are some of those trends that you think will be happening in a few years?
GRANT: Well, if you look at some of the stuff that's starting now, obviously, product operations. Steve had mentioned it earlier. I believe that it'll be getting more mainstream and figuring out what that really means. We're doing a lot of work with product Ops leaders through our product Ops Alliance, and it's about how do we help? I think the term was we're the product managers for product management. I think that is going to start maturing, which I believe will help product management and product organizations as a whole get better at their jobs if we can do that. Right. So that's one thing I'm looking at. A lot of people talk about machine learning or AI cannot replace product management, but I believe those are people coming from the actual development side who don't understand the true value of it. This is my aspirational hope is that the strategic role of product management that you, Steve myself, are talking about will actually be that the pendulum will be coming back and people will be understanding that we need to treat this as a CGI role. We need to be the voice of the market and talk with them and understanding and defining market problems that we should be solving. And I believe I'm even seeing people like David Bland. He did a little graph of the lean thing that says build, learn, measure. And the joke was built was ten times bigger than everything else. I think that we're seeing people realize that we need to do a better job about learning and measuring. And so hopefully that helps bring that pendulum back towards that strategic role. Steve, anything to add? What are you seeing in three or five years.
STEVE: Well, I think that, you know, to kind of jump on something that Grant said. I think there are a lot of teams that are wanting to let data make the decisions. And my hope is that product managers are going to have access to data to guide their insights instead of replacing their insights. I hear people talking about data driven, and I prefer the phrase data informed. But then in our courseware in our consulting work, I'm astounded to talk to people who say, oh, no, I don't have revenue numbers by product. Oh, no, I don't have the number of bugs that were reported. I don't have any instrumentation at the product level. So how in the world is AI going to make any sense out of it if we don't even have access to the data? So that's my aspiration for the next three to five years is that product managers will again take on the strategic role that we've been talking about and also have the instrumentation they need to make good decisions?
JJ: Yes, I completely agree with that. And I would say that my aspiration and hope for the next three to five years. And Steve, you mentioned it a little bit earlier, which is the CPO role, the chief product officer role. I hope that as you mentioned, it's a seat at the table, right? It's not a thread through marketing or a thread through engineering. It is as important, if not more so. And I don't mean that more important, I guess, but as important for sure, to have a seat at the table and have that product viewpoint, which, by the way, holds hands with marketing and holds hands with engineering. And so that's why it's so important that it be a seated staple. So I'm hoping that product officer, that product executive role will become more and more prevalent in companies across industries, not just software, not just durable, but kind of all the way. And then that role will serve as a conduit to drive some of those things, like turning back to the market and the customers and understanding the role more. So fingers crossed, the three of us will do our work over the next three to five years to try to educate others and see what happens. So if you were to think about what's happening now and then again, what you see happening over the next few years, what do you think is the most concerning trend that is probably not going to be the most effective or the thing that's going to help us move forward in a good way. Steve, I'll go, I'll go to you first.
STEVE: Okay. I think the most concerning trend is the one I've pretty much already talked about is the product manager subsumed into development. And when I started started consulting ten years ago, I decided to write a book. But I did something crazy. I interviewed people first and I interviewed 100 leaders of product and asked them about primarily about the success of Agile. And 50% said Agile has changed them for the better. And the other 50% said it's been a freaking disaster. And what I saw was the ones who have had success now, the ones who had a disaster had renamed their product managers, product owners, and then deployed them as business analysts. Then the success factors were the ones where they said, okay, the business analysts are now going to become the product owners and the product managers are going to continue being product managers. So that's what I've been seeing in terms of success and failure. The concerning trend. There is so many people I talk to are doing the administrative or even secretarial role of product management in focusing on Jira tickets. And just last week I was at Private Camp Atlanta and I asked a few people, when was the last time you saw a customer? The whole room was like always been months since I've seen a customer. And yet one of the speakers said, you know, you need to be connecting with like ten customers a week, which I thought was a little aggressive. But it was amazing to me the number of people who simply had no customer experience that were calling themselves product managers. And they were maybe taken aback when I said, if you haven't visited a customer, then you're not doing product management. And so that's my biggest concern is this development orientation, this Gerald ticket orientation that we have in so many organizations.
JJ: Grant, what about you? Do you see a trend out there that’s concerning?
GRANT: I see a couple, and I'm going to break my biggest rule when I'm doing the facilitating. If I say most, I want one, and I've got two things. I'll interrelate them together. One is I've been seeing way too many people on the social networks be talking about, do we really need product management? Can't development and design just do that? And I think that there is a misunderstanding of that strategic role. We've been talking about where people product management, the title has been subsumed, as Steve talks about, into just being a reading from Jira aloud and not doing the strategic role that people aren't seeing the value. And my concern is the title is an issue, but the title is also an issue where there's also this whole thing about, hey, you want to learn product management, learn from somebody at Google or Twitter or YouTube. And the reality is that what product management is at a big, fast growing consumer face to face unicorn is different than the B to B product management enterprise product management that I grew up with. And that most of the people I work with and I think that those are together where people are seeing what product management is and not understanding the value, whether it's because it's too development focused or because people glamorize, oh, you're a product manager at Facebook without realizing how different that is from being a product manager at a large BTB enterprise.
JJ: Completely agree. My hope is that. Couple of things on that. I do hope that folks like us and again, there's a bit of no offense to you guys or myself, but we're kind of talking heads in a way. We do the work and we're we're all passionate about it, but we can't do the things that the people in these organizations are going to do. Right. Steve, I loved how you said earlier, you've been in consulting for 25 years and you've did real work before. That real work that cracked me up. And there's a bit of truth in that, right? We can't change the world, right, no matter who we are or what we're doing. And so the people in the organizations have to realize that one of the things that I hope that outside of product management, this business trend that's happening, the great resignation, however we want to phrase it this week, people moving companies and moving industries. I hope that the fact that the old school somebody joins a company and they stayed 20 years and that's a good career, and that doesn't happen anymore. I'm hoping that the fact that it is now seen as a positive thing to move every few years and move companies and maybe even move industries, I see that as a really positive thing for product management to your point, Grant, because if product management looks a certain way in Google, it's going to look completely different than the company that builds commercial lighting for arenas and public parks. It's just going to look different. There's a lot of core principles that are the same, but it's going to look and feel different in those two organizations. And I'm hoping that people cross pollinate and that product management becomes this function like accounting in a way, not in the same way, but like every business has accounting, and there are principles behind it that you can move from one company to the next, one industry to the next. That's actually going to be a really positive thing for product management. So I'm hoping that that's one of the things that happens through some of these other macro trends that are happening right now.
STEVE: And, you know, to extend that thought really exciting thing for us is we've engaged with a lot of investment companies that are coming in. They're putting money into a small company. And the first thing they say is you need to get up to speed on product management. And we worked with a company recently that had gotten an infusion of investment, and they reached out to us for training their team. And yet they at that time did not even have a product manager. Through the training and the coaching, they selected a couple of people to be product managers and. The whole relationship shifted in such a powerful way that the product managers were saying, here are the problems we need solved. And the developers were saying, wait a minute, you're going to let me use my judgment and knowledge of technology you to solve the problem. And everybody got like super happy. And so to me, the good news is a lot of these private equity firms are saying product management is the key to getting consistency in these younger companies. And maybe that is one of the things as well that's going to reinvigorate product management going forward.
JJ: That is exciting to hear. So speaking of that, grant, do you see any things that are just exciting trends that pump you up that you think are really going to move the needle for us in product?
GRANT: I think Steve talked about some of it. For me, I believe the more discussions we have, the better we can figure this out. And I think there's a great group of product people on Twitter who sometimes I love, sometimes I get frustrated with, but there's at least a smaller group. And you're part of that, JJ, where I see people learning from each other and I see people coming from technical product backgrounds. That place we talked about, we seem to be stuck in the agile world. And having conversations with me about Playing to Win by Roger Martin or Good Strategy, Bad Strategy by Remote, which is to me that's exciting to see people who have been in that more tactical technical role of product management opening their mind to the business and strategic side. John Fontaine, product font on Twitter with his book coming out, there's a lot of great stuff that I'm learning from people. And for me, if I can be in a place where I'm learning from people through these conversations, that makes me excited and I'm seeing a lot of great people out there who are helping those conversations on LinkedIn, on Twitter, in our community, at product growth Leaders, we have great conversations every week on specific topics in our topic of the week. And to me, those dialogues would excite me that the whole movement can be successful.
JJ: Yes, I love that as well. I think it's. I certainly have been learning from the product management community and hopefully helping a few folks as well. So actually, I'll piggyback on that to answer my own question. And I'm going to combine what's concerning me most and what I'm most excited about, because I think it's the same thing, and it's related to what you just said, Grant, and that is the fact that product management still needs more diversity and the fact which is concerning part of it. But the exciting part of it is that there's a little bit of a shift going on, and there are folks from lots of different backgrounds. And I say diversity, of course, I mean gender and race and those sorts of things. But I also mean from different backgrounds and different perspectives and folks coming from the teaching field or folks coming from the accounting field or folks coming from kind of these non traditional and product managers can come from anywhere, but generally speaking, they come from engineering, they come from maybe marketing or sales. And so I love to see folks coming from no College degree, but they have a lot of real world experience, these various places in the world and these various backgrounds. And I love to see people wanting to get in product management and organizations switching things up a little bit in the way they're looking at candidates. That to me is exciting. I think that the more we can get people from different backgrounds into product management and have various perspectives in that market sensing role, I think is very important. So to me that's one of the things that I'm most excited about it is concerning that we're still trying to get there in 2022, but it's certainly exciting that it seems to be moving in the right direction. My next question is how are we going to navigate all of these trends?
So Steve, what advice would you give to folks in product management today on how to learn from what's happening and how to navigate trends we've been talking about?
STEVE: I think product managers need to spend more time networking with product managers. One thing we see a lot in the way we do our training, which is really very participatory is, is the realization that this group of product managers has never before come together to talk about managing products within a single company. There will be a meeting, but it will be related to getting ready for sales meeting or marketing campaign. So we're seeing just these delightful interactions between people who work in the same company on different products, but they've never actually talked to one another. And we see in our community the same thing, people coming together and saying, oh, it's just so delightful to talk to somebody else who understands my world. Unfortunately, I used to work with a fellow who admitted freely. He had not read a book since College. And I just was Thunderstruck by it. And there's so many good books available now. There's so many good podcasts like this one available now. There's so many online conferences available and so many communities available available like the one we have at Product Growth Leaders. There are so many great ways to network. And I hope that today's product managers will take advantage of that instead of being kind of facedown in their product and not looking up and taking advantage of so many great resources that are available.
JJ: And Grant, I'm going to spin it a little differently, which by the way, I think what Steve just said is great advice for this other group of people who are trying to get into product management, who are not in product management yet, but trying to get into product management. So those of you out there listening who are not yet in your product manager role, what Steve just said for existing product managers is good advice for you to network, learn from each other. Grant, anything else to add for people who are trying to get into product management, what advice would you give them?
GRANT: To me, one of the core skills of product management is being able to have vibrant conversations and listen and learn and so part of it. To Steve, participate in networking, that type of stuff. But do your information, interviews, go talk to people who are doing what you want to do. Learn from them. Almost treat it like you're doing product management. Right? Have those interviews, have those conversations. Everybody can read the books. Everybody can go to LinkedIn learning and take courses, but go out there and start interviewing people and talking to them and learning from them. Do open and interviews, find trends and start almost treating your career like it's your product or the product manager of it. And that to me is the biggest thing you can do product management on yourself, on your career. You can do product management. I brought product management concepts into my son's baseball League. Right. You can do product management for anything. I brought it into a youth Orchestra. Right. There are so many places you can start using the concepts of product management, help improve organizations or yourself. And it just starts with doing it to see engaging with the community around it.
JJ: I love that idea with the baseball and the Orchestra. You're the favorite dad. I'm sure in that group. That's so cool.
GRANT: Not for the kids who want to learn how to play baseball or an instrument, but for the board who wanted to make sure that we were doing good things business wise, to help help run the business and treat it like a product. They love me.
JJ: They love you. Yeah. The kids are like, oh, no, Grant’s coming. The parents were like, yeah, Grant’s coming. All right.
So final question. Obviously, you guys have great resources at Product Growth Leaders and for listeners, they know by now that we link to all of the resources on Productvoices.com, so you'll be able to get access to Product Growth Leaders website and other links that Grant and Steve will provide. You can connect with Grant Steve on social media, so all of that will be on Product Voices at the time of the episode launching. With that said, what other writings tools resources do both of you like and learn from in product management.
STEVE: Well, I'll say generically, certainly product camps. I was in Product Camp Atlanta this weekend. I try to attend product coffee Wednesday mornings, like way early. And those are free events for anybody who wants to learn more about a particular topic. So I'm really big on product camps. And Jason Brett's, product coffee that he runs on Wednesday mornings, it's great. I love it. And product camps are all over the world, and especially now, at least the last couple of years, a lot of them have been virtual. The three of us have certainly been on some of the same ones, even though we were sitting in different places in the world. So some of those, I'm sure, will continue to be virtual. And then product camps in your local area, look for those because those are really great events. Great events. I agree. Steve
JJ: Grant, what about you?
GRATN: I'll do a little pitch of other stuff. Every week we do a topic of the week conversation. We now have 70 or more of those recorded in the community getting diverse conversation. So that's a great place to go because all these different topics and not just Steve and I, we've got every call has 5610 people on it talking about those topics. So that's a great place to go for me. Where I learn I learned every week. But where I go for the most right now, Roger Martin, the author of Playing to Win, has a blog on medium that is just I mean, it's gold. I read them, I tweet out important portions of them, put them on LinkedIn. That's where I've gotten the most learning outside of there are books I read, but that is the most consistent. Every week, sometimes multiple times a week. He's he's putting stuff out there. That's just amazing. Very much on the strategic side. But product management is a strategic role. We are doing strategy when it comes to markets and products and everything he's teaching, I'm like soaking it up.
JJ: I love that. So we will link to all of that on Product Voices.com so you can find that. And I'm all about learning and continuing to help each other learn. So thank you both for sharing those resources. Very important.
Grant Hunter, Steve Johnson, thank you so much for joining me on this conversation, sharing your experience, sharing your thoughts on where we're going to be in the next few years. Very exciting stuff that we're dealing with here in product management. So again, Grant Steve, thank you so much for joining me.
GRANT: JJ, thank you so much.
STEVE: We were glad to be here.
JJ: And thank you all for joining us on Product Voices. Hope to see you on the next episode.
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