Episode 089
In this episode of Product Voices, our guest Kalia Aragon discusses infrastructure and future-proofing products. She emphasizes the importance of diverse teams and a problem-solving approach. Kalia highlights the key attributes of future-proofing and advises product managers to engage early, build tech competency, and foster communication. She raises concerns about data privacy in AI advancements and encourages empathy and thoughtfulness in the field.
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro 00:03
Welcome to Product voices, a podcast where we share valuable insights and useful resources to help us all be great in product management. Visit the show's website to access the resources discussed on the show, find more information on our fabulous guests or to submit your product management question to be answered in our special q&a episodes. That's all at productvoices.com. And be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. Now, here's our host, JJ Rorie, CEO of great product management.
JJ 00:36
Hello, and welcome to product voices excited about today's conversation. It's all about infrastructure future proofing your products, and why that is incredibly sexy. Like you might not be thinking, oh my gosh, that's the coolest, most sexy idea or topic I've ever heard, but guess what it is and we're gonna prove it to you in today's conversation. So I've got an amazing guest with me today. I'm very excited to have Kalia Aragon here with me. Kalia is a dynamic product leader with a particular passion for data privacy and mission driven work. Most recently, that passion took her to flatiron health, where she leads the Enterprise product team spanning software and data development infrastructure. She's also in her past played an instrumental role in launching Disney plus internationally. One of the things that I love most about Kalia and what she does is she is known for creating communities that support underrepresented populations. She does amazing things. And she believes that the best products are made by diverse teams. And so I am so excited to have Kalia here with me Kelly, thank you so much for joining me for the conversation.
Kalia 01:45
Yeah, I'm a I'm a classically thinking of the radio call in, you know, longtime listener, first time caller. I love everything that you do with this. And you know, always excited to see the newest episode and I felt like you are able to get such good. Say daresay sexy, interesting details from all the folks you chat with. So I love what you bring to the community. And I'm excited to play a small part in contributing to that.
JJ 02:13
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. It's, it really truly is my pleasure. And it's one of my favorite things that I get to do is to talk to, to so many great product folks like yourself. So you know, I gave a really quick bio I love you know, your career and the trajectory, Jeffery, that it has taken, and what you've been able to do, but I'd love for you to just spend a little bit of time giving, you know, some more color on your background, you know, particularly why you're so passionate about this particular subject. Yeah, definitely.
Kalia 02:42
I can tell you that if you talk to a 16 year old Kalia and you told her that she would be on a podcast articulating why technology infrastructure is sexy, she would say that you're you know, you're off your rocker a bit. So definitely non traditional entry to this. I'm not a technology by upbringing, technologists, rather by upbringing, other than being you know, alive when technology was more accessible, but I'm an advocate. I'm a social justice advocate and warrior first and foremost, you know, wanted to work on policy and work on legislations, and I thought the world was westwing. But Aaron Sorkin live. And that's not how governments run so moved into the nonprofit space. And so as a result, you get hired to do one job, or paid for one job rather, but asked to do five. And so that's what started my journey of, you know, owning technology I first owned Salesforce and other, you know, CSMs and other data infrastructure. And so just kind of slowly grew into learning how technology can leverage and advance social justice work and, you know, eventually made the full switch into technology working in the privacy space with browser protectors. And then, you know, as you mentioned, I was really honored to be able to be a part of the group that launched a net new product for the Walt Disney Company and Disney streaming. So in lots of different areas, I've seen things really from the ground up both in a kind of bootstraps nonprofit setting to collect donor information, all the way up to how do you make sure you know, folks are buying Mulan and where they came from, what ad impressions caused them to purchase. And you know, my current role now is really helping the organization mature from alerts, late stage startup to an early enterprise and continue to be the leader in kind of the real world evidence in health tech space. So infrastructure was silently creeping into my life my whole career. And so now I'm starting to see the sexiness of it and what what a fundamental building block it is for, you know, nonprofit organizations, but also companies to be really, really successful, and to leverage technology in the best way that we can, right? You have to do that with infrastructures. I've started to kind of figure out and live and you know, breathe and experience every day. So that's a little bit of Now me, so I think it's so key.
JJ 05:02
Yeah, absolutely. And I want to dig into that, again, love your background, but I want to dig in right there. And I know this is going to sound like a base basic question. And I actually mean it that way, because I always like to set this table, kind of in the, you know, the most simple way possible to make sure that everybody is on the same page. So yeah, you know, let's define infrastructure. Like, again, I know, that's a basic question, but But tell me more about that. What do you include an infrastructure? When you say infrastructure, and it's sexy? What do you mean, what's included? And again, kind of why that's so important. Yeah,
Kalia 05:35
Totally. Again, you know, I am not an engineer by trade. So when I think of infrastructure, it means, you know, everything you need to do what technologists do. And so the easiest, simplest metaphor I think about is, you know, take you back to when you were a little kid, and you got a toy, right. And you're so excited. For me, it was my password keeper, digital journal. So it was a it was a journal, but it was locked. And you had to type in a passcode. So it could protect, you know, my innermost thoughts. And that was my first piece of technology, my basic, my basic computer. And so you're so excited, you have your toy, you get home, you unpack it, and then you realize that your parents don't have any of the batteries that you need to run the toy. That is what infrastructure is, right. In my mind, infrastructure are the things that the cool fancy, shiny, you know, toy, are powered by and fueled. So infrastructure has to be or I have to make it sexy. Because all that people see is the toy, right? All that people see is the journal all that people see is the colors. My team provides batteries. And a lot of people don't think batteries are as sexy as I do. And so that's a big part of what, you know, I'm excited to talk about today. But yeah, from a brass tacks perspective, at least in my world. Now, infrastructure spans not just the cloud resources, right, in places like AWS and things like TerraForm, but also is the infrastructure for developers right to be able to build and technologists, right, not just developers, but you know, data scientists, and folks like that, what are their experiences, what are their tools to go through the SDLC, right, the actual software delivery process to push code, all that. And then really platforms also is another form of infrastructure, so less in the weeds, you're not, you know, rooting around in TerraForm. But rather, you're using a platform that has tools and libraries and other things to then build whatever your downstream product is. And so we're very, we're very honored to be working in, you know, the real world evidence and healthcare space, and, you know, building products that are changing folks lives and improving the lives of those living with cancer. But that's not our day to day, right. My team, don't talk to oncologist directly, we don't talk to life science partners or clinicians, we talk to the technologists that do that work and deliver them so you know, deliver those products for them. So that's what I mean, when I say infrastructure is the batteries that go in the shiny, exciting tool or toy, rather, that people are building.
JJ 08:12
I love that, that kind of the story or the metaphor there. Because I can just see myself as a kid, like, Oh, my God, how do you not have batteries? Like how did you give me a, you know, and again, I can, I can, and now and then I got to be an adult and give toys as a as a as a president, and you always got to get the batteries and tape it to the president right to make sure that's there. So So you do your job? Well, you and your team do your job? Well, the end customer doesn't know anything about you. And that's a good thing, right, that's a good thing, that everything works seamlessly and smoothly. And that the folks you know, building the products, supporting the products, etc, can, you know, make it make it run smoothly for that end customer. And I suppose that every every type of product may have a slightly different infrastructure behind it or underneath it, but for a lot of the people listening and kind of software type of platform products very similar to you. So same kind of question that I just want to set the stage with. Because again, we're going to be talking about future proofing. How can we do that, again, kind of make the make the infrastructure and make the operations of our products, you know, work now and in the future? So what do you mean when you think about future proofing products? And how do you kind of advise your, your teams and your your company on on, you know, going through future proofing? Yeah,
Kalia 09:32
Definitely. So you know, you have to, to future proof, right, you have to make an animal sacrifice in the middle of a jungle right or middle of a wilderness area so that you're you no doubt with the powers of being able to see and foretell what's gonna happen in the future. Right. That's what future proofing sounds like it means. Obviously, that's not true. No, of that none of us are going to know what's actually happening. Right? And so, you know, one thing that comes to mind I think about future proofing is that there is not going to be a checklist, you are not going to be able to download a template, you're not going to be able to, you know, print a manual that tells you exactly how to deal and how to do future proofing, future proofing for me, and investing in strong infrastructure and making it sexy is a mindset. And so it's about how do you approach problems? How do you frame your thinking, what is the methodology that you approach, because you know, even through my career, I've worked on, you know, infrastructure, back end tools, consumer facing tools, etc, you can still use the same kind of concepts of future proofing. But it's going to be a dance on how you be able on how you're able to, you know, apply that to your given, you know, tech stack. So for me and my team, you know, our North Star in terms of future proofing is how do we protect our developers flow? How do we enable the engineers in our organization to be able to do what they need to do as seamlessly as safely and as reliably as possible? Right. And so, you know, just to, I guess, put it into an example, having seven different tools that allow someone to, for example, build a data set, you could say could be safe, right, safe, and that if one tool goes down, they have another okay. Yeah, maybe that checks off that box in terms of being safe. Reliable, okay. Sure. I guess, again, we can make the same argument if one of those seven tools go down, you have another tool, okay. Sure. I guess we can argue that it's reliable, seamless. How do you onboard an engineer or data scientists to a team where you have seven different ways to do a thing? I haven't even talked about costs, which cost to me is another thing that I think is embedded in infrastructure. And it's very sexy, but like, you know, that doesn't pass what I would say like the sniff test in terms of future proofing, right? And so, you know, I don't want to make a sweeping generalization to say, Okay, well, the only solution is to then have one tool, because seven is too many. And that makes it more seamless. It's not an easy equation, it's about kind of addressing, what are some key attributes that make a product or service or whatever, you're building future proof? And I think it's about really, what are those things? So for my team, right, how do we protect our users flow? Is it safe? Is it reliable, right? Is it seamless, those kinds of tenants are what we apply our thinking to our tech stack, given our state as an organization, our engineers and where we are in the market and our financial and technological maturity. When I was at Disney, maybe those were not the same three things that we would test to see if we were actually future proofing. And so, you know, I think for me, future proofing is a mindset, it's about how do you make sure that you're still around, right? From a technology perspective, right, business is part of it. But that's, you know, hopefully someone else's job, someone's making sure there's still money in the bank. But from a technology perspective, as a product leader, as a key partner to engineering, I think it's our responsibility to make sure we have an idea of what it takes for us to have stable, scalable, reliable, safe systems. And we have to think about the long term in the future. So whatever is sexy today, might not be the best thing. And again, for infrastructure, you know, you can't just spin something up in two seconds, right? And forget about it forever. There's a cost to that decision. So yeah, future proofing for me is a mindset. And it's about establishing what is the rubric? Right, what is the methodology that your organization is going to use to decide if something is a prudent decision for you to make?
JJ 13:33
Yeah, that's great. And, you know, again, it's, it's having that intentional forethought, not necessarily predicting the future, but knowing enough and using enough data and intuition to kind of, you know, be prepared or as prepared as possible for not only now, but the future. So I love that. So okay, let's get into the sexiness. You've sold me I'm in like, I believe, like, because I kind of see the big picture. And I know how I know how important this is. But I personally have never owned, you know, this part of product A lot of people haven't a lot of people are that kind of customer facing role. Whether they're building it or selling it or whatever, like how do you get your peers that are more you know, product facing customer facing outward facing to to get it to buy into it to to care, frankly, about this important work? Because I can we always talk so much about the customer impact? What's the customer impact of what we're going to do? And should we really spend money on, you know, tech debt or this or that and no, it should always be customer impact. Well, guess what? It's going to be customer impact everything you've said so far kind of points as to, you know, we've got to have this under the hood or it's going to impact the customer. So how do you get your peers your part? nerves internally to care about this. And to think this is as sexy as we think it is. Yeah,
Kalia 15:06
Definitely. You get a second animal setup. You know, it's, it's, it's really difficult, right? It's really difficult. You know, I, I'm a sucker for a metaphor, right? And so I explain even when I'm interviewing for folks to join my team, they're like, you know, how is your team different than other product roles? You know, what are the challenges with your stakeholders? And I was like, Well, you know, no offense to my peers, I love you all. But you know, what is it like to talk to someone who doesn't believe in gravity? Right? And how do you connect with someone that doesn't use the same set of rules as you right, or I guess a more simple, simplistic version for folks that, you know, have children, it's like, what happens when your kids don't want to eat vegetables, but you know, they need the vegetables, and they're going to have an upset tummy, like two days from now, because all they ate was chips. My brother was a saltine cracker with butter, a young child. And now this man is like serving status. So you know, eventually they grow out of it. So I would use the same metaphor here is that, you know, I think just like you mentioned, eventually people get it. Because when it comes to infrastructure, right, if we go back to the toy analogy, if you want the toy to work, it needs a battery. I mean, that is an immutable fact, right? If you want the choice function, you have to have some of this stuff. So, you know, there gets a point where, you know, it's not a conversation, unfortunately, sometimes that's a tricky conversation, because now we run up against resources and allocation, and, you know, prioritization and deadlines and all that stuff. So, you know, I would say at the beginning, it's really difficult, and I absolutely have not figured it out. So if listeners have suggestions, my DMs are open for any advice. But the general rule and how I advise my team to think about this is, you know, I encourage them to be storytellers. We are product managers, some people call us master linguists, right. Ultimate translators, right, some people use the middle, like, you're the hub that is connecting all the spokes of the wheel. And so you know, storytelling and communication is your is your special superpower, right? And I always tell them, that the burden of understanding a message is not on the audience, right? So in this case, it is not the responsibility of my peers to understand how infrastructure works, as you mentioned, it's not in their job, they maybe you've never had experience about it. Right. And so, you know, I, you could call it a burden, I think it's an honor. But I think the burden of understanding a message is not on your audience, it is on the behalf of the storyteller. So I encourage my team to think about how you can tell the story in a way that will allow your audience to connect and resonate with the message you're trying to send them. I'm not saying change the information. I'm not saying say you know, gravity doesn't exist, because it does. It's an immutable fact and logic of our lives. But maybe you showing the scientific equation for gravity, which I don't know what it is, because I'm not remember, I've studied Aaron Sorkin and westwing. I'm not an engineer. I don't know the equation. I'm not saying chant, you know, that it's going to always make sense. And that math is math. And everyone should understand that. That's not true. That's not what's actually happening. And so how can we adjust and curate our message in a way that resonates with you know, our audience? And so for me, it's perpetually trying to figure out what is the toy for my peers, right? What is the toy for our, you know, business units, and then I connect the dots about how something my team or what we can contribute to, will let them get that toy faster. And so takes a lot of research, a lot of listening, a lot of, you know, one on ones, a lot of reading people's strategy decks, and really connecting the dots, which is why I love this work. No offense to anyone working in inside of, you know, closer to the problem space, but I love how wide and expansive our remit is my nerd divergent mind makes connections all the time about how improving our identity management system will unlock benefits across all of our business units, right? And will future proof us because if we reorg 5 million times, and you know, but if we have this identity management system, it won't matter because we can just be flexible, right? Stuff like that is what makes me thinks it's sexy. And so that message being on, you know, this audience to understand, I think is where you're going to just feel like Sisyphus and really pushing a message up the hill with very minimal outcome. So yeah, I encourage my team to tailor the message to your audience and say it in a way that resonates for them, which is not always easy, but I think possible, most More times than not.
JJ 19:44
So I love it. I absolutely love that. It's such sage advice because wow, like like it's it's our job to make it connect. It's not their responsibility to make, you know, make up our message connect with them. So I love that really, really good advice. Is there? So I'm curious, just kind of a more tactical day to day question. How does your team get involved with the rest of the product team? Right. So do you come in early? Are you part of the, you know, discovery process? At some point? Are you part of, you know, problem analysis? Or, you know, more on the back end, middle ear? Like, How's that look on a day to day basis? And when you're kind of working to build things?
Kalia 20:28
Yeah, I would say, you know, it depends on the circumstance, right? So anytime we can be involved as early as possible, it's better. But you know, I've a relatively small team, compared to our business units, you know, I would argue at the smallest product team in our entire company with the largest kind of footprint, right? If we make a change, or one of our services goes down, I mean, you know, our entire company is down, right. So a lot of a lot of pressure, a lot of, you know, different types of thinking a lot of the folks on my team span, both execution work and high level strategy work. Right. And from a competencies, you know, its point of view, it's really hard to cover that gamut. So, you know, for me, I think it's about being as plugged in as possible in the right ways, right. So I would never advise like a new product manager who is, you know, starting to cut their teeth on the more I would say, execution, focused parts of product management, that person should not have cross functional one on ones with people across the organization, it's not a good use of their time, right? I think folks at that level, and I advise folks at that level at my team is to get really close to their product suite. And to really understand the technology, because connecting the dots at any level, including mine requires a pretty strong competency and understanding of our tech stack. And that's why I love this job. Because I don't have an engineering background. And so you know, I don't know what half of this stuff is, which means I get to learn all this stuff every day, which is so fun. So I think first is investing and splitting up what we do know and being experts at it. So we spend a lot of time with our engineers, we spend a lot of time externally doing research, many of the folks on my team, do both academic and like professional courses externally, some of them even code and use some of our products and dog food them to get that experience. So I think that's the first part of what makes us really good collaborators, because then when you know, really closely Well, next thing, you know, our product managers are talking to other engineers around the organization, right? They're the ones chiming in to Slack channels for support. And that's kind of how you get, you know, the boots on the ground information about what's kind of turning up. And so I would say on the opposite end, you know, myself and my engineering partner, we do have one on ones, right with folks at our level across the organization, you know, I have a great Slack channel with all the other heads of product in the company, and we shoot off ideas and you know, talk about, hey, this is what's coming up. And we just started doing cross functional business reviews, where each of us kind of are sharing a deck of what's kind of coming up for us. And then, you know, each of us kind of raise their hand and say, Oh, that's interesting. I want to know more about that. And so I think on, you know, both sides of the spectrum, it's about really, really becoming not just subject matter experts, but really connecting the dots experts. So those can rent range from, you know, like I mentioned those one on one meetings to, you know, proactively getting connected. But you know, for me, it is a lot of coming in early reading those emails that people kind of just bypass, right, like, I love a monthly newsletter from a GM because it tells me what's on their mind. And then I can store that away in my brain. And then when something connects, it's a lot of going back and check your notes. So a lot of the tactics that I'm sure people use, right, reviewing strategy docs, looking at roadmaps, having one on ones, and then striking while the iron is hot. So I think the key thing for my team is we will never have enough information, we will never have enough research. So how can we strike when at least is the most opportune opportune time for us to do so? So I think, you know, also leaning in, and not just sitting, you know, in the shadows and waiting for the opportunity, but saying, Aha, Eureka, these three things are connected. Here's now my story that is optimized, right and written in a way that makes sense for the audience. I'm trying to convince and here we go, you're off to the races because you're telling someone that you can be helpful, it 5 million times is useless. showing someone how you can be useful is how we bring God into our organization. So yeah, I would say those are some of the tactics. Amazing,
JJ 24:34
Amazing thanks for sharing that. I think it it gives a glimpse of again the real world, right? Like what what's it look like and what what's good look like in that way. So you don't have to ask this question. Maybe it goes a little bit to the future proofing. But we got to talk about AI. I don't have a conversation these days where I don't talk about AI and stuff. My cats don't understand it, but I even talked to my cats. So and they're like Meow and what what the hell are you talking about you Okay, so um, you know, will AI change infrastructure work was it looked like it AI products will infrastructure will be different for that, like, what are you thinking about this? Like, what should we be thinking about and looking out for here?
Kalia 25:15
Yeah, so I might be on the opposite side of the spectrum here. I'm like a karma. I'm very much a curmudgeon. So to me, I'm like, in my day, you know, we wrote notes on a piece of paper, why do we need a digital thing that's gonna your way to your TV. I just, I really love that energy. And I live in, you know, Brooklyn, New York. You know, older women with their shopping carts are yelling at people because they're, you know, walking too fast, or whatever, I embody that. And so, you know, I really take, I really take a devil's advocate approach to this topic. So you know, I hate to admit it, but it's unavoidable, right, AI LLM, ml all that there's, it's not going anywhere, right. And so I can't just stick my head in the sand and pretend like it's not happening. And so my team really is trying to absorb that, right, because in addition to all the other stuff that they're trying to work on, they're also thinking about the future and what that means. And so, you know, I think the biggest thing for me is that it really does have the opportunity to provide a step change function in a lot of the work that we do, right. And so, you know, we do reports of our support, burden, and all the different things and the problems that we're solving. And I'm sure would shock no one, that the majority of the type of support that we do, could have been solved with some type of AI, right? I complain a lot about permissions and getting access to things and like, that doesn't need to be any series of humans, that can absolutely be something that AI solves. If your infrastructure was future proofed and set up intentionally, to do that, I guess I'll give you a really great example. Right? Some, if not all, of the, you know, different AI, you know, products out there, and, you know, chat TPT and the like, have legitimate infrastructure system requirements and considerations, right. And I'm very much a data privacy fiend. And one of the real ones is how is our data being leveraged? Right? What is the agreement in terms of when we sign a vendor? Right? Are they using our data to have their model be learned? And so you know, that in this instance, is unique, but generally, it's not? Because the question is, if we want to protect developers flow, we want to make things seamless and scalable, right, and not reliable. Maybe if we had infrastructure that allowed for sandbox environments, right? How much time and energy have we put into creating that? Okay, well, now all of a sudden doing experiments with all these different AI products became so much easier. And the barriers to entry for discovery are much lower. And so that's what I mean, when I say, infrastructure can be sexy, because if we think about it in the right way, it doesn't need to be a burden, right? It doesn't need to be a complex right ecosystem of things. If we add a little bit of intention, right to what that means. And so, you know, my professional answer is that I'm optimistic about the things that it will offer, and especially when it comes to very mundane tasks, right. You know, AI has a lot of of benefits, especially for teams like mine to do a lot of those kind of like nitty gritty details and things like that. But personally, you know, I am always apprehensive about technology. I'm a, I like slow technology, I believe that technology should exist and develop at the rate of human comprehension, because then we're able to actually make insightful ethical decisions about them. But I know I'm a curmudgeon, and that technology cannot be controlled or slowed in any way. But I would just ask a lot of folks to think about the implications of some of the decisions that they make, especially when it comes to what data means now for AI and L lens and other things, because we are ultimately as product managers, advocates for our users. And if we're true advocates for our users, we also want to protect their privacy, and the privacy and risk of what we're exposing our companies to right and so, you know, little salt, little salt with the sugar is I would say the burden is on all of us to think about what the infrastructure means for these tools. But I think if yielded correctly, it could allow us to operationalize and more mundane details of our jobs.
JJ 29:37
Yeah, I love it. And, you know, I, I think it's a very pragmatic but still, you know, optimistic view and I think I and I hope that others take the same kind of, you know, perspective and, you know, look for ways to help but look for ways to to help the world and not hurt to World. So I'd love it, curmudgeon and all. Final pieces of advice like like somebody out there who's either, you know, new to the infrastructure team or you know, product world, or someone who's in kind of more the customer facing product world, but they want to be better partners, with the infrastructure team, like any, any resources, any final pieces of advice you'd like to share?
Kalia 30:28
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I guess first and foremost, you know, for folks that don't do this work. Make sure to thank your local enterprise engineering team, think the folks that work at your local IT bar or, you know, you're submitting your Zen Desk to reset your password, even though you ignored the 12 reset your password emails before, which I'm also guilty of, you know, so just be thankful, right? I think the big thing I would want to say for folks is, you know, we're, you're obviously you know, our internal user, and we care about you, but also, we're on the same team. So add a little empathy and caring to the folks that support your team. But for folks that, you know, want to want to get into this, I say, do it. You know, you mentioned a lot about underrepresented communities, I am often the only woman or the only woman of color, and many of the conversations that I'm in unfortunately, at the IC level, and the leadership level, in the space of infrastructure, and DevOps, and you know, SRE and all that kind of stuff, there's not many of us. So I say, if you want to have a big impact, if you want to be the first in a lot of places, if you want to make kind of the biggest, most sustainable change, in my opinion, you can make an accompany, you know, look for roles like this, and, you know, my company and others are always looking for and hiring people in this space. And so I think it's a really important place to be also thinking about, you know, they say, we'll chat GPT and others replace product. Luckily, my world is so confusing and obtuse. I feel very confident about always being able to find a job. So if you're looking for a reliable gig, I say it's also a good place to start. But you know, just be trying to be thoughtful, right? As product managers, I hope we're all curious. So just lead with curiosity and be thoughtful, and ask about what choices you're in, you know, what your choices will have in terms of an impact, right? Both, like you mentioned, to the world and to your tech stack. So yeah, if you anyone's looking I'm always happy to help a fellow a fellow back end infrastructure human who wants to do the sexy work that I think I think we do.
JJ 32:37
And I think we've we've pretty much sealed the deal. I mean, the story is now set. This is the sexy product work period, like that other stuff that happens, it's so boring, nobody wants to do it. And so it's gonna be hard to find people who, you know, want to actually build the products for customers, because they're gonna only want to do this. So I think you you're a great storyteller, and you sold us all so Kalia. It's been such a fun conversation. And so insightful. Thank you so very much for being here and for sharing all of your wisdom.
Kalia 33:07
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
JJ 33:09
And thank you all for joining us on product voices. Hope to see on the next episode.
Outro 33:13
Thank you for listening to product voices hosted by JJ Rorie. To find more information on our guests resources discussed during the episode or to submit a question for our q&a episodes, visit the show's website productvoices.com And be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform.