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How to Find the Right Product Role (and Company) For You


Episode 070

Ever wondered how to navigate through the labyrinth of career moves in product management? This episode promises to be your definitive guide. Our guest, Cassidy Fein, shares her wealth of experience, gained from Pendo, Vimeo, and Echo 360. Listen in as she unveils how to identify the right roles and companies and strategize your career moves. We also discuss the current market pulse and how to connect with the right people in the right place.


It's not just about the right career path, but also about finding roles that ignite your passion and resonate with your values. Cassidy offers valuable insight into understanding an organization's product, business model, and revenue streams, and how these impact your day-to-day role.


Shifting gears to long-term career planning, we emphasize the importance of being flexible in handling life's unpredictable turns. Weighing up the pros and cons of specialization versus generalization, we also arm you with strategies for managing people effectively.


So, if you're keen to steer your product management career towards long-term success, this episode is a must-listen!


 

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Episode Transcript:


Intro (the incomparable Sandra Segrest): 0:03

Welcome to Product Voices, a podcast where we share valuable insights and useful resources to help us all be great in product management. Visit the show's website to access the resources discussed on the show, find more information on our fabulous guests, or to submit your product management question to be answered on our special Q&A episodes. That's all at ProductVoicescom, and be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. Now here's our host, JJ Rourie, CEO of Great Product Management.

JJ: 0:36

Hello and welcome to Product Voices. This conversation is going to be very relevant to a lot of people out there, I believe, because folks all over the world and across all walks of life are trying to get into product management. These days it's just a very highly visible, highly attractive role, career choice, and I love it. I've been in product management for a really long time and I love the fact that it's getting so much visibility. And then, of course, there are the folks in product management already who know how great it is and love it, but they're also often looking for what's next and moving around in their careers. This role is certainly a profession that rewards and demands lifelong learning, and so by that very nature we tend to be folks who are looking for what's next and trying to move our careers and grow our education and our knowledge, and so that just tends to lend itself a little bit to a career movement, and all of that's a good thing in my opinion. But it's not always easy to know what that right next move is. What's the right role for us, what company might best fit our values and what we're looking for? Is there a particular culture or industry or product type or something of that nature that can give us the best opportunity to not only bring our full self and our best assets to the organization, but also continue our learning and growing and just being in an environment that is a great fit for us. So conversation today is all about how do you move around in your career, how do you look for that next role, how do you really intentionally take chances on different career moves. So my guest today is an expert and I'm just so excited. I've seen her speak several times at different events and I just love her, so I'm so excited to have her here. Cassidy Fein is currently the Senior Director of Product for Platform at Pendo, an instructor at Mind the Product and coaches in her spare time. I don't know how she has spare time, but she does and she is an amazing coach. She's worked in B2B SaaS focused products for over a decade, with previous experience leading enterprise expansion and integrations at Vimeo and before that at Echo 360 on tools that were used by millions of students and thousands of instructors. She's based in Brooklyn with her husband and five month old daughter and her dog, Cariboo. Cassidy, thank you so much for joining me today.

Cassidy: 3:20

Cassidy, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to catch up with you today, caraboo.

JJ: 3:25

Yeah, and next time we'll have your daughter on and maybe even Cariboo. Maybe he can join as well, Cassidy.

Cassidy: 3:31

Yeah, I don't know what they'll have to say that's relevant to coaching, but you know she's getting into the fishy noises these days, so that could be good.

JJ: 3:38

There you go. Okay, awesome, future guest on Product Voices. I love it. Okay. So you know, as I mentioned, the market is just. It's busy right now. So what do you find that people are missing when they're looking for a new job?

Cassidy: 3:54

Yeah, it's a great question. So when I, as you mentioned, in my spare time, when I am coaching or when I am speaking of folks that are trying to pivot into product from you know, maybe a developer role or a sales engineer role or customer support role, the question I get a lot is more, it's less about you know how I become a successful product manager or what does that look like? It's more how do I be a product manager or company X or how do I be a product manager or company Y, and they're almost always B to C and they're almost always a consumer product that they themselves have enjoyed using. And I always try to walk folks away from that. I have them try to take a step back and say, okay, I understand that you as a consumer enjoy this product. You know what could that look like in terms of your day to day and actually working on this product? You know these are people that they're interested in product management, so they understand the basics, they understand kind of what that looks like, but actually translating that to a day to day job could sometimes be really tricky. So it's been funny because I've kind of run this thought exercise the few other folks. I actually said someone come to me recently he's trying to choose between kind of a developer IC track and a product IC track and he has developer experience but is really curious about product management and literally said you know, I'm really interested in this company. They do kind of athletic wearables and I really want to kind of jump in. I do like feel like this could be a good fit for me. How do I reach out to them? How do I find the right people? And I told them I was like let's take a step back, let's think about what that actually means. This company, you know, this is their business, this is their business model, this is how they sell and target consumers. These are the types of product managers that they employ and the product areas that they realistically focus on. And in talking through it he realized that actually sounded a lot less interesting that he had expected. So it's, I think, first and foremost, you know, making sure that you're decoupling kind of your experience as a consumer or your experience as the end user with a product or series of products, with the actual experience and day to day of working on it as a product manager. Sometimes it can be really aligned and sometimes it can be widely divergent, and that's something I really like to push folks to think about because it can really help open up other areas of opportunity for them to work in. I am probably a little bit too defensive about this, but I work in B2B SaaS. I have my whole career. I'm really passionate about it. I genuinely unironically love it, and it makes me sad when people are like oh, you're in B2B SaaS, oh huh. Well, internal tools, oh OK, it's a really exciting area and it's an area that offers a lot of opportunities and positives that I think that people initially glance over because of that leaning towards the consumer-hacing product or a more B2B product, if that makes sense.

JJ: 6:58

It does make a lot of sense. I too have been B2B, or have been B2B, I should say, my training and advising. I've kind of run the gamut, but when I was sitting more in the product leader seat, in the product manager seat, every day it was B2B and I always thought there was a huge impact we were making. So I agree with you and I love that you bring that up. But so that brings me to my next question, or next part of the question, which is one of the assumptions I think people make is that B2C is cooler, it's whatever something they've used and know about is more in line with what they want to do, and I think, like you say, that's not necessarily a correct assumption that folks should be making. So are there other assumptions that you think folks should be avoiding as they're trying to kind of interview with companies? Maybe it's general assumptions about roles or specific assumptions about a company as they're going through interviewing processes?

Cassidy: 8:01

Yeah, absolutely so I think. First and foremost, assuming that there is a template for how a product manager should function across every company, that is the same. I think any product manager will tell you that you talked to, you just worked in at least a few different roles. They'll tell you the role is so interesting because it can look and feel totally different depending on the industry, depending on the business, depending on the company, depending on the company's size, and for good reason, because the product manager we wear I hate to add it to wear a lot of hats, but we do. We have a lot of responsibilities and we tend to engage with a wide swath of any business, across sales, across support, across engineering, across marketing, you name it. So because of that, I think that product can be really, really unique across every business. So I would say do away with that assumption, especially if you are a new or newer product manager. The second is assuming that, because a business is within a certain industry, you're going to be kind of pigeonholed to certain types of roles or certain areas of focus. I, in my brief stint in wandering around and figuring out if I wanted to still be in B2B early in my career, I tried out working at a B2C publisher and it was actually great because I ended up meeting someone who's very near and dear to me and is also a great product manager. But it was also a great learning experience because I realized it was something that I assumed I would be working in one capacity on. I was hired to help work on mobile publications and do more or less kind of a broader rewrite of the mobile page. I'd assumed that meant oh great, I'm working on mobile ops or I'm going to get more experiences submitting to the app store or I'm going to get more experiences at Swift. It turned out that just meant I was kind of rotating ad units and maximizing the most expensive ones for our viewers and trying to multiply eyeballs. So I think that's the kind of second assumption I would love for people to be mindful of. It's just because you are targeting a specific industry, it doesn't mean that as a product manager within a company within that industry, your role will follow, kind of whatever presumptions you're making about that, whether it's the platform or whether it's the business itself. That being said, there are some commonalities based off of certain industries. Obviously, healthcare, education, technology is going to have longer iterations, longer kind of learning cycles, longer sales cycles, heavier regulation, whereas something like B2C social media is going to have a lot faster learning cycles and a lot less regulation, although maybe not with everything coming out about it. Those, I think, can still help inform generally the sorts of patterns that you may be following as a product manager in those industries. But again, it really just depends on the business and your business models. That's the third thing I would say is assuming, just because you're at a B2C company and may have a flashy brand name or something like that, you're going to be in a position that maybe feels more energizing or you're meeting with more consumers, naturally, than you would be at a B2B. I think people have this assumption that when you're at a B2B company you work with these nameless, faceless corporate entities Fortune 100s that are just throwing money at a problem, when in reality I've loved B2B because it's allowed me to create some of the most worthwhile relationships with customers that I've carried throughout my career. I'll still chat with folks that I met that were customers that I worked with back when I was in ed tech at Echo 360 years ago, because there are fewer customers, because the sales cycles are longer and because your customers just tend to be larger, I'm actually able to form more intimate relationships with those customers. So I would again just say taking a step back and thinking through those assumptions based off of the business model itself, if that makes sense.

JJ: 12:37

Yeah, I love that and I think it's really important things that you brought up there in terms of the day-to-day the assumptions of what that will look like, the assumptions of how that company will work. And the fact is, as you said, every company is slightly different. So whether you're staying in the same industry or moving industries, even just moving companies is going to make it obviously a different environment, but the role itself can be defined slightly differently. So I think that's some really really good advice there. So, since it's so important to understand the company, you're going into understand the role and, of course, the domain or the industry. What are, in your experience, some things that people should be looking for to know about a company or a role or an industry before they get into it, and are there some ways that they can kind of tease that out through the interviewing and application process?

Cassidy: 13:39

Yeah, that's a great question, and the question I get asked the most is you know, how can I get an idea of the culture of a business before I join? And I think the true answer is you really can. So you can do your best due diligence and chatting with folks that used to be there or that are there currently. But in reality, this is why I try to be, you know, open with folks that I coach as well. Sometimes you join and sometimes the rug is going to pull, pulled out from under you. I was chatting with someone and she actually just had this experience and in that case, there's no shame in saying, hey, this is actually not a good fit for me, hey, this is actually not what I was expecting, and you know, going back to the drawing board and trying to find something that is a better fit for you. But you know, of course, it's just say all the classic due diligence try to find people that used to work there Ideally used to work there in a role, or even in that previous role, if it's a backfill and get a feel for attitudes from the executive teams around product. I personally have never been someone that's had an appetite to evangelize product at a location or at a company. I like being somewhere where someone already understands the value of product and really lets me kind of run free and do what is needed in order to have the product be successful. So, understanding existing attitudes and the business around product, you know whether sales kind of just sees it as an intermediary step to getting what they want or see sales them as a true partner in, you know, working with customers and helping deliver real value, you know. Or with the executive team, do they see product as an R&D money bit or do they see product as a way to ensure that the business is as valuable and innovative as it really can be? Those are, I think you know, some things, some threads you can kind of pull on to see what kind of attitudes there are around these things, some questions you can ask that maybe aren't as pointed but will help kind of garner similar results. Or things like how did the last kind of large release for the business go? How has success been measured for that? What adjustments were made? Kind of post initial go to market, because there probably will be some or should be some right, and thinking about all of those things and just going to see if the person kind of wins. This is like, oh, we have this big release and then it fails and then we never, you know, touched it again. Or oh, we actually were going to have this big thing and then kind of, we've got money and funding and hold and now we're focusing on this random thing and now our whole roadmap is just AI stuff and I don't know what that means. You'll get a better feel for kind of what all that means just kind of by kind of innocently generally asking a few of those types of questions. Aside from that, I think the other question I get the most is you know kind of specifically, you know what, what does the day to day look like? And that is again ideally something to talk to other product managers there in. But you know, in reality again it will just be kind of experiencing the role. That's where I really love to kind of dig into particular industry and really make sure I understand what is driving revenue. I think a lot of folks in product think that you know, as new product managers, potentially they can kind of go in and be this sort of mysterious steep drop sort of figure and wave their hands and say this is the best way to solve this problem. Let's go make it happen when, in reality, as a product manager, it's so important to understand the business side as well and how a company makes money, because, as a product manager, what you are generating really you are generating value for consumers, which should drive value for the business it is. It goes hand in hand. You shouldn't have to choose, but it's important to keep both in mind. You know so. With that, you have to understand where and how money is coming from. Is it a subscription business? Is it an ad business? Are you selling to government entities and you have five year long sales cycles, but they're multi-million dollar deals and so you have really really kind of intense close periods, depending on when those kind of when those rhythms tend to happen. Understanding all that will actually drive a lot and help you understanding what your day to day will look like working in a physical business.

JJ: 18:03

Yeah, I completely agree and I love that. I love that perspective because I think people when they get in the interviewing process for a product role, they're so focused on your nuts and bolts of the product and the product role that they forget that it all centers around the business at the end of the day. And so I love those problem questions about the business and about the customer impact and the business model and how products involved and all of that. I think that can eliminate so much about the maybe not the day to day culture, but it certainly can about how the company prioritizes. So I think that's a really, really good advice there. And I'll just tell you a quick little anecdote I love the fact that you are, you know, self-aware, that you're not a big fan of going into an organization or an environment that doesn't already understand and appreciate product management, and I think that's really, really important. But there was a time when I was actually I actually joined a company as a product leader, head of product and no more of a no product. It was an American Hospital Association, of all places, so it was a very different kind of, you know, organization, but they had products, they had data products, they had other kinds of things media products, et cetera. We really didn't know what product management was. I relished in that, I loved that, but I was the head of product. Right, I could, I could, I could derive some of that, that culture and that understanding of product. If I was coming in as a product manager to an organization that didn't understand it, then that may have been a completely different scenario, right, and so that's a really good point to you know, try to probe what product is in that organization and what does. What does it look like, what does it feel like and do they really get it? And it's not that you can't make a huge impact if they don't already. In fact, sometimes you can make a bigger impact, but just make sure that you're ready for that. And if that, if that's not really your environment, then yeah, still still clear. So I think that's a really good piece of advice as well.

Cassidy: 20:05

No, 100% it's. You know, it is really interesting and robust, exciting work. It's just a. It's just a different flavor, exactly yeah.

JJ: 20:14

Yeah, absolutely so. I mean, at the end of the day, every person out there would love to have a role that is perfectly aligned with their value system and it just stokes their passion every single day and drives them. Every day they jump out of bed and say, oh my God, I love this, this is so awesome. Of course, that's not going to happen every day, but, you know, a lot of us have jobs that we love and that stokes our passion. So when, when we're out there looking, you know, what advice do you have for folks to help find that role that does drive them, that does, you know, stoke their passion?

Cassidy: 20:51

Yeah, oh yeah, really good question, I think, if you can answer this perfectly, then that's it.

JJ: 20:58

We're just going to go sell this, sell this in a bottle, and we're going to make billions. Yeah.

Cassidy: 21:03

Perfect, no pressure. No, I think you know not to be the introspective middle schooler, you know, let me define the term. But I think first just really looking at, what does passion mean to you? This little roundabout story but I promise I'll bring it home. So in undergrad I studied film and I in high school had written a few spec scripts. I ended up in a bunch of screenwriting classes at my undergrad in Northwestern Also did some cinematography classes. I love film. I ate it up. I love film theory. It was just kind of I lived and died by it and I knew that I really, really, really wanted to film. I knew it in my bones. I was going to work in development. I interned at AMC back in the kind of mad men breaking bad heyday. Just everything felt right. And then I graduated and I realized that that meant I would be fetching coffee for two years before I would be making a single dollar to my name and I immediately bailed. And it was really when the rubber hit the road of the reality of oh, you can do what you love as long as you are okay with starving or living off of your parents for another year or working two jobs, and that just kind of broke my heart a little bit. Honestly. There are plenty of people I know who have been really successful. A lot of them I went to school with and I'm really enamored with them and I just think it's incredible. Even more so because it would just I just didn't have it in me and it really took me a while to come to terms with that. That what I am passionate about now, it doesn't necessarily mean I jokely call myself film school failure, but it was really kind of recontextualizing what I'm passionate about and I still drag my husband to film form every now and then to watch them, you know, random subtitle movie. But it's more that that is a passion for me and it's not a passion I necessarily need to kind of create or provide. You know, within Add to, I guess, is a better way of saying it it's more something I enjoy consuming. And then, on the flip side, within product and within tech, it's an area I'm passionate about as well, but it's an area that I can provide to, that I know I can add value, that I know I am someone that is helping to help customers and help businesses and help other product managers and that makes me feel really good and passionate in a totally different way. So I guess this is a really roundabout way of saying you know, be introspective a little bit and think about your passions. You know not to sound right, but what is a hobby or what is a joy of something that you do that takes your mind off of things, versus what is something you really want to actively work on and contribute towards, sometimes are the same and that's really awesome, and sometimes they are totally different. I would also just say, you know, harnessing that energy and positivity that comes with again, this may sound a little presumptuous, but being good at something, I think, especially as we get older and we, you know, are more comfortable with ourselves as adults, first of all, it becomes really challenging to try new things, because when you inevitably fail, it feels bad, and I would say, instead of you should always, of course, push yourself and be comfortable with failure, but also, at the end of the day, understand what you're good at and feeling good about. Being good at, that is great, and harness that energy. When you go to work and you know that you're going to go in and absolutely crush that meeting with the board, or you know that you are going to go in and you know, rewrite that code and clean everything up and it's going to be running spick and span within minutes, you know, versus hours or days, feel good about that. It takes. You know what is that? Like 10,000 hours or something like that? I'm totally butchering it. But to be really an expert at something, we're, all you know, a lot of my colleagues and I are getting to the point in our careers and ages where we are experts in something and it feels really good to be able to take into that sometimes. So it's a embrace that as well.

JJ: 25:22

I love that answer and I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. It's really fascinating. I think that a lot of people, if they look back, they had different views of what their future was going to look like than what it ended up, myself included. So I think that you tap into that. I'm sure that you tap into some of the same things that made you passionate about the film industry in your job now, as I do. It wasn't the film industry, but it was other things that I thought I would end up doing and now I kind of bring that into my job in whatever way makes sense and you can definitely do that. And your passionate project or whatever it may be may not end up being your day-to-day career and that's okay. So I actually love that advice and really, really love, you know, embrace, being good at something, right. I have yet to hear of one person or meet one person who loves their job, who isn't good at their job or doesn't think they're good at their job, right. I mean, that's part of it is part of the positivity and the fact that you're doing something for some customer base or for some employee, you know, partner, or something, and really embracing that and loving that, I think, can almost manifest its own passion, and I think that's a really great kind of a great story to have people think about it that way.

Cassidy: 26:51

Awesome, awesome. I hope it was helpful. I hope it was illustrative.

JJ: 26:56

It was. I loved it. So when you coach people and you're helping people think about their career in the long term right, because we've been talking about kind of the next role or you know how do you understand what you're looking to do next. But do you have a kind of a thought or an advice framework for folks in terms of like looking out, like how do they think of their career in the long term? Do you have any advice for that, looking at a career and kind of the long term view?

Cassidy: 27:27

I do I do, I think, first be mindful to the extent that we all try to design and optimize our lives. You know, life happens. Things will happen that are not in your grand plan, and that is okay, that is great. And it's how you react to them, how you navigate, how you make the most of things and how you realize what's working and what isn't, how you really take all these things, is what matters. So that, I think, is the most important. First and foremost, I was talking to a lot of folks recently who have been let go or who are very frustrated with the current market, and I know I just want folks to not hopefully take this as a measure of their competency or what they should or shouldn't be doing. Techniques, smart, brilliant, amazing folks like you. So please, please, please, do not let it deter you. You know it's a second. I tend to get folks who ask me more classically about kind of IC versus manager. But what I find interesting is when I have those conversations they tend to also drift back to his idea of a generalist versus a specialist and folks presume if you are IC, it's going to better if you're a specialist IC. Folks presume if you're a manager, it's going to better. If you're a generalist manager, you know I would say you don't really have to choose, but at a certain point you're not going to be able to. You're going to have to work really hard to break apart from kind of one or the other. So, you know, you reach a certain point in your career where you maybe want to start managing people. Start, you know, speaking with folks, doing informational interviews of other folks of how they manage people successfully. What does that look like? What does that day to day? You know, ideally be armed with the knowledge so that when you do get to manage someone successfully, you won't be in a position where you don't, you're not quite sure how to support them. And then same goes, I would say, with generalists and versus kind of specializing. At a certain point you may be known as the person that does the thing, and that's okay too. If you, if you love that, if you know that you don't want to explore other areas, if you want to capitalize on that, do it 100%. But I've personally I found a lot of value in being what I consider to be a generalist. I just find a lot of things really interesting and I'm generally curious about them. So it's been fun to kind of dig around into different businesses, different industries, b2b, b2bc, you know, education, technology, video, really everything across the board. So I would just say, be mindful of these things before it's too late. I don't mean that to sound ominous, but I guess just be mindful about the path that you are taking and what that can kind of translate to for either of those opportunities, if that makes sense.

JJ: 30:31

Yeah, that's awesome and it might even tie back to our last. You know, part of the conversation in that last question, which was, you know, what stokes someone's passion may be, you know, being really, really good at something and that might lend itself to specializing for some people, right, some people love the confidence that comes in knowing that they are absolutely great in this area and they're okay not being great in every area, right, or not even, you know, knowing about the others because they know they're the one in that one and that in itself can kind of lead to their passion. So I think it just goes back to self-reflection, right, and what each person looks for and would find value in. So I love that and I love how it might kind of tie together.

Cassidy: 31:17

Yeah, 100%.

JJ: 31:19

So my final question for you, Cassidy, is just something that I love to hear from everyone, because you know again, we're just all lifelong learners and there's so many great things that we can learn from and resources out there. So what resources do you recommend for product? Folks Is there, you know, learning the craft and becoming experts and whatever they're doing Any good resources that you turn to.

Cassidy: 31:43

Yeah, yeah, oh, my goodness, I love this question because I am, our family just moved, and so we're moved to the first time in a place that doesn't have built-in bookshelves, and so I've been. I've had to come face to face with my. I've been collecting and it's ridiculous. So, yes, I have so many things I can recommend. I always try to parse them down In the spirit of our conversation today. I would actually recommend some atypical resources in my own sort of journey of learning about other businesses and how other companies function and what that can kind of mean as a product manager. Two I'd say probably three things I really read most often are first, in this May against Encounter Tudor, but I promise I'll get there there's a newsletter called Money Stuff. It's by Matt Levine. He's a writer for Bloomberg and you think money stuff, you think finance. You're like, yeah, that's not relevant to me, or I'm sure I work in fintech but I don't need to read about finance specifically. I would argue that any good product manager, first and foremost, is a great and strong communicator, and that tends to take the form of storytelling understanding our users' problems, understanding why they're actual problems, and then how do we solve them? How do we solve them in a way that is satisfactory to our users while still being valid and profitable for the business. Matt does an incredible job of starting from the bottom up with every single thing that he covers, whether it is something as complex as you know mergers between a bankrupt bank and something else, or something as silly as the kind of latest crypto scam. I think a little point. We covered Guy Hiari, like nothing is off limits, but just his talent as a writer to ensure that whatever he's writing about is something that even I layman can understand, I just love, and also he's just such a man. He's just absolutely hilarious and just a great person. So that's when I'd recommend the second. I've been listening a lot to legacy episodes of the Internet History podcast. If any of you listen to the tech meme Ride Home, it is narrated by the same person, brian McCullough, but he did an incredible job of just cataloging interviews with, I mean, hundreds of people that are incredibly important to the history of literally the Internet. So you know everyone from XTTOs, ceos, cpos, publishing industry, crowd computing. I think he did an episode of Ken Norton that I realized him to recently. I mean, just, you can find anyone within this backlog and it's a great way to kind of revisit and understand how something became the way that it is today. I think one of my favorite episodes that I constantly quote in one of my classes is what happened to dig and what that meant for the rise of Reddit and, in general, kind of how these social media companies kind of tend to follow the same rise and fall cycles. Anyway, that's been a resource that I've been leaning more on recently as well. The third that I'll tout, which is potentially really out there, but bear with me, I've been reading a lot of newsletters, or rather I think it's just like daily digest from the board message boards from the Harvard Law School Forum of Corporate Governance. So it is a personal goal of mine to be on a private or public company board soon, now that I'm back from a journey, I believe. So I'm starting that process and as part of the research for that, I've been reading about a corp cover, corporate governance and a friend of mine whose lawyer actually recommended that, and you would think that it's actually really dry and some of the posts, I will agree, are quite dry, but some of them are really interesting and some of them actually going to point to broader trends in the industry. I think before we can have started having this reckoning in tech and kind of ethical hand wringing around AI, a lot of posts were coming up in the Corp Gov kind of forum and I found it to be really interesting what kind of folks takes are on these from the perspective of this Harvard School. So that's my third kind of probably a little bit out there resource, but you know, have it go, let me know what you think if you do. And yeah, I've been kind of really listening through them all and enjoying them all recently.

JJ: 36:22

That's awesome. I love it and I love. I love when folks share, you know, kind of out of the box resources, because I think obviously there's a lot of great product content out there and things that we'll see and here and can get value out of. But I love these that you've shared because they're just the ways for us to get more well rounded in our knowledge and in our view of the world. So I think that's awesome and some of these are new to me, so I'm definitely going to going to take them up and check them out. Yeah, that's awesome and for everyone listening, of course we will have the links on productvoices.com on the episode page. You will know where to find those. You'll also find ways to connect with Cassidy so you can get in touch with her and connect and network with her, because she is amazing and you will want to do that, cassidy. Fine, this has been such a fun conversation, very enlightening. I appreciate you joining me today and sharing your wisdom with us.

Cassidy: 37:19

JJ, of course, always great to chat with you. Hopefully I will see you again soon.

JJ: 37:23

Yes, absolutely, and everyone. Thank you so much for joining us on product voices. Hope to see you on the next episode.

Outro (the incomparable Sandra Segrest): 37:32

Thank you for listening to product voices hosted by JJ Rory. To find more information on our guests, resources discussed during the episode, or to submit a question for our Q&A episodes, visit the show's website, productvoicescom, and be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform.

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